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Handicap Complaints - general advice.
Please please please please please... stop contacting me with complaints about player’s handicaps. On the night everyone is capable of playing well, it’s just the higher handicaps are obviously less consistent. We played Portland last night, big Stuart off 26 potted like a scratch or better, but he’s played every week for 4 years so the handicap is correct, just was having a good night. Nobody has played badly for 4 years on purpose just so they could beat you!!
3 of the complaints I’ve had recently the players concerned had won ONE match all season! One complaint was even after a draw...
I didn’t introduce the handicaps or set them, was nowhere near the committee when handicaps came into force, I’m just responsible for keeping them up to date on a spreadsheet!
Any new players I seek advice over regarding handicaps (as I seem to have taken on this role too?) and also I actively contact their opponents for the first 3 weeks to see if we’ve got it about right. A lot goes on behind the scenes that most aren’t aware of or appreciate regarding the handicaps, and the number of complaints I get weekly from people who I thought were quite sensible is staggering.
Unfortunately the biggest issue with the handicap system is there is no “well played mate” anymore. It’s now become “you’re a f*ckin bandit” and players are being made to feel guilty for potting balls!
Rant over, and.... well played last night Stuart. 🙂 🙂
You have my sympathy Mr Biggs, you was always on a hiding to nothing with this, and no easy answer, valid points made regarding this on both sides, next AGM will be interesting!
😏
Steve
Totally agree with the point raised above regarding the players that have been continually playing in the leagues through the last few years that the handicap has been introduced. Anyone can have a good potting night but no one is doing it consistently like the top players.
We have seen some players top out at a level going up and down between that level and the guys that are performing coming down. I personally feel that the system is now coming to its optimum with the players
What I don't like to see is the players that actively try to put the colours out of play to stop opponents scoring. The handicaps are there to also encourage the players to try and get breaks as they have the buffer of the handicap difference.
hopefully this then gives you confidence in your play if you are potting more!!! hopefully potting more!!!
I know that this will not suit all and if you are only getting a game on a Tuesday then it is there to try and make it more of a level game for all.
Ultimately it is a game with two players trying to pot more balls than the other!! Some night you will some you wont, namely I wont as I'm not practicing enough!!! I do not envy your position as it will never please all
Cheers. Might as well put this here as good as anywhere with a bit of comment on the thread. I was thinking exactly that re handicaps, do we need to be moving them up or down two each week now. We are near the end of the 4th season handicapping and although you do get peaks and troughs in form roughly everyone is close to where they would be at.
Dundee have a system where the handicap is fixed for the season in blocks of 7 (one black Ball). So Marc would be say -42 up to Bob around 84, still with a maximum difference, which I think we were looking at reducing slightly after feedback.
Do we need the constant changes each week? can we just review them after each season and maybe upon special request if somebody really improves a chunk or is struggling badly. Any new handicaps set as provisional for 3 matches as now and then adjusted either way if necessary after feedback.
Just an idea for consideration before the AGM.
Biggsy has done a tremendous job in running the handicaps as it must be a bit of a pain. DESERVES something from us all for his efforts.....but post mortems is not his role. As for handicaps, I think it's great that everyone plays on Tuesday with a chance of winning. We need some sort of system where we can still even it up a bit. I honestly think it's a case of capping at 40 or less (open to discuss) for all players except the top 16 players who can give maximum 60 say but continue using the same system. I think then the best team, Oldmachar would be still up challenging for the league. I have seen it all though since the introduction. One player actually got 100 start from me, didn't pot a ball then fluked a pink to win, shouted come on, punched the air, told the whole bar, phoned his wife outside in front of Alan Pedalty then his teammates told people at my work......but hey it made his day so I don't mind, found it funny actually!! There is however this problem of potting a red, landing plum on a colour then just playing the 'dump' shot.....that does piss me off and happens quite a lot but if the handicap is capped then maybe this would stop. I guess it's down to a vote, stick or not, personally I don't mind but do feel a cap is needed, especially considering some nights are one frame. That means lots of effort to go, guy makes 30 with 100 start, night night. I gave someone 92 this year and he made 42 in Inverurie so it does happen!!! Anyway morale of the story, in my opinion of course is it needs tweaking but generally works well.
Some good points made. For me we definitely need to cap the handicaps to make it competitive for all standards. Handicapping was definitely needed as was no fun for those with lesser ability losing all the time nor was it much fun for the more accomplished player who pretty much did not have to try very hard for a win.
Its much more enjoyable to have to play well (by your own standard) to win. We are now in a position whereby the high handicapper doesn't need to try very hard often to get a win particularly if the balls go awkward.
For me a max start should be set at 60 - remembering that not so long ago there would have been no start. To avoid constant work and update for the committee those who have now played most seasons should have a set handicap for either first half or full season then reviewed and altered depending on performance half way or at end of season (maybe half way for a start?). Should be easy system in place something like win 50% - stays same then sliding scale either way?
I get that some guys just play on a Tuesday and apparently have no interest in practicing or improving but this cannot dictate how we operate the handicap system as this will surely be the minority, like golf we should all be trying to improve our handicap.
In summary we have done the right thing by introducing a handicap system with the intention of making every match competitive but IMO have over compensated somewhat, just need a sensible cap so that if you play well both players have a chance of winning.
My view on this from a beginner with a high handicap.
I only started playing in August and I am enjoying playing. Even though I have only won once this season. I started at a 36-point handicap and steadily declined to 50. Since then I have had about 12 draws 1 win and 1 loss. During this run I, have played well (beginners standard) and played bad, however so has most of my opponents.
What I think is good about the handicap is that most of my games has been competitive. I have played a variety of standards and had I been playing better on some nights I think I could have won more games. Had I been playing from scratch I would be humiliated every week. But due to the handicap and players not playing well, games are very close.
What I think is wrong with the handicaps is when I'm taking away a point from a player that’s had to give me over 50 points start when they are playing well. A good example of this was last week when I had a 70 + point start. I won the first frame by playing well and my opponent showing me too much respect like most do on the first frame as they don’t know my standard. Although I played well from my standard it was clear my opponent was playing better. I would suggest a 45-55 point cap which I think should balance the scale in favour of the player performing on the night.
I don’t think the handicap needs to change every week but If you're on a 5-game winning / losing streak, a change should help keep most of the games competitive and hopefully improve the standard while allowing a bit of form be it good or bad.
SteBiggs,
you have my apologies for any grief I may have caused by joining the league and upsetting others with my allocated handicap.
Some good discussion with a balanced view from a variety of individuals. If we cast our minds back to the original intent of the handicap system, it was to give individuals a fighting chance, if they played well to their standard. This is worth remembering when we consider modifications.
In principle, I think the current system works reasonably well as many of the frames go to the colours and most matches are close, with league contention spanning many teams for a sustained period. In addition, the frames scoring eradicates “dead rubbers” meaning all frames carry eaqual importance, which is another good feature. That said, I feel the system does need modification, but where that “sweet spot” is will be subject to personal opinion.
Personally I like the idea of a static handicap and the handicap banding mentioned in a previous post by Steve. Players handicaps should be fairly well established by now and I would suggest they are fairly reflective of an individuals ability. Therefore, I would propose the handicaps remain static with a bi-annual review, at the midpoint and conclusion of each season. Anyone winning 50% or more of their matches moves down a band and the same in reverse would apply for going up.
For amateur v amateur snooker I find it unfathomable that anyone should be getting a start of more than about 50 (Davis and Benson are exceptions to this rule but they should not influence the masses and they can be dealt with in isolation)
Interested to hear the thoughts of others, as the more it’s discussed, the better the final outcome will be.
Would probably need to be more than 50% to move someone up or down if you’ve a 13 frame to 12 record at halfway I’d say it’s about right. Probably somewhere nearer 60/65 to warrant a change but it’s a decent idea. I don’t mean setting handicaps where they end up this season as players could be in a particular good or bad run of form but I think we’ve enough evidence to sit down between us and set handicaps for everyone now at 7 point margins. I expect the cap will be reduced a little too.
As I eluded to earlier if we look at performance after first half of season and try and keep to a simple format, last thing committee or the players need is some complex formulae that needs a maths degree. Should simply be on frames won/lost, be something clearly for agreement but for me something like - if your losing or winning 70% of the time then change by seven up or down. Anything within these percentages means your having good and bad days which is natural.
If you look at golf which has been successfully using handicap system for god knows how long they base your handicap predominantly on your A game and only goes up by 0.1 when you have a bad day, but comes down in lumps on a good day depending on how much under par you are. Clearly we are trying to get away from changing every week, hence the reason for having an accepted range be it 65/45 or 70/30 (whatever is agreeable).
One of the downfalls of the current system is handicaps are not based on your best game due to going up or down by the same number, therefore when someone turns up with a high handicap and plays to there real potential they are always going to win and some opponents then have a go at the committee like Steve mentions in the original post.
For example we all know players who can potentially be a very good player when they "turn up" but there B game is nowhere. Hence why there should be an acceptable range agreed before a handicap is changed. Also need to factor how many frames are to played before a handicap can be properly assessed for change.
Just some more points to consider!!